Kelechi: ‘I will begin with Abraham’s tithing in Genesis 14:20.Abraham paid that tithe as a pagan for at that time,he had not yet believed God.’

Two quick answers to show your fallacy:

1. There is not a single verse that teaches anywhere that Abraham gave tithes as a pagan. The idea of Abraham giving tithes as a ‘pagan’ is a fallacy often dribbled into Genesis 14 by cheats who no longer read their Bibles.

2. BEFORE Genesis 14, Abraham is known as one who believed God. Twice EARLIER (in both Gen. 12:8 and 13:4), we read of Abraham as a man who ‘called on the name of the LORD’ – the very feature that marked the lives of those who believed in and worshipped God (see Gen. 4:26).

Your argument is weakened on the basic flaw of your misreading the texts and drawing false conclusions. This is also shown in your claim that, ‘Actually, a new faith was revealed in Christ (Galatians 3:23,25) which Abraham did not and could not exercise.‘

What exactly did you mean by ‘a new faith’?!? Perhaps you never read such passages as Romans 4:12 (NLT) which affirms that Christians have and walk in ‘the same kind of faith‘ which Abraham had before he was circumcised? I’m not sure where you got your idea of a ‘new faith’ from, for we know that there is ‘one faith’, not two or three of a different ‘new faith’ (Eph. 4:5).

There is nothing in the Bible that condemns a believer for tithing – as long as that is willingly rather than by coercion or manipulation. It is a big shame to us Christians to waste so much time arguing against the giving of a tenth whereas the Jew under the Law gave far more than, and many reports show unbelievers giving a tenth of their resources without arguments.

If someone has made up in their mind to give to the work of the Lord a set figure of 10%, whom am I to stand between that person offering and the Lord ? I also believe unequivocally that the ministers and workers of the Lord should be paid by the monies that come into the church ( tithes and offerings including ). Throughout the bible Old test, and new test, believers and doers of the Lord was supported by offerings and Tithes. There are some anti-tithers that dispute tithing as a underhanded self pious way to be stingy in their giving. I pray the Lord bless all the readers of this blog and to be able to give 90%+ of their income to work of God. I also pray for the individuals that have the heart to give by not the financial means to do so. I pray those who can give listen to the Spirit and help those out who can not. I believe ( in my opinion ) the epitome of biblical stewardshipping ( biblically ) lies in ACts 2 and Act 4. These beleivers sold everything that had and helped one another. The Word said they were lacking NOTHING, and they did this voluntarily under the influence of the Holy Spirit !! WOW ! Thats what I would like to see.

THANKS MY FAM IN CHRIST !!

I hope this reach all in good spirits !!!!

Thank you for your very refreshing reply and observations. My apologies for the delay of my rejoinder, as I’ve been quite busy lately. However, your last paragraph captures for me the true essence of a spiritual dialogue in Christ – I deeply appreciate how you touched my heart.

There’s nothing much to improve upon in your post, tavares. I agree mostly with your perspective and for helping me to see your contexts. Please forgive me where I might have failed to see your point earlier, as my previous observations were not meant to domineer yours in any way.

That said, you made a most beautiful point about your standpoint of financial giving. Like you, my persuasion is that we should not be rigid on any particulars. If anyone wishes to express their stewardship by any certain percentage (more, less or exactly 10%), they are free to do as they purpose in their hearts (2 Cor. 9:7) – and may God bless them all.

The one thing we should all consciously gaurd against is legalism from any quarter. Arguments against “10%” are as legalistic as arguments for a “compulsory 10%” – both positions are clearly unbalanced. An anti-tither should not try to impose his own ideas upon believers who tithe, especially in the face of the fact that God has evidently blessed many tithing Christians: and we cannot deny that, regardless the arguments. In just the same way, a tither ought not to make a rigid “10%” as compulsory or mandatory to God’s people. Many of us today understand that tithing is just ONE expression of our stewardship to God; and yes, we can all lovingly encourage one another to sow abundantly in the example and spirit of our Macedonian brethren who gave “beyond their power” (2 Cor. 8:1-3).

Now, by way of clarifying some issue, could I share something on this interesting point you raised (emphasis mine):

Abraham did not break God’s Law. BUT, IF tithing is AN ETERNAL LAW, than he did indeed break it. This is because he did NOT give from what he accumulated in the previuos two chapters. Abraham was VERY rich but the Scripture undeniably confirms that his giving was from the spoils of war.

That’s true. You explained that your point in the above was because you wanted to take a common sense approach because God works in the natural as well as the supernatural. Good point, and I shall bear that in mind.

Here are the reasons (among others) why I have no problem with Abraham’s tithe:

1. The Bible refers to Abraham’s gift to Melchizedek as tithes in both the OT (Gen. 14:20) and the NT (Heb. 7:4 & 6). If God’s inspired Word calls it “tithes” without worrying about whether it was from the ‘spoils of war’ or whether it was done only once, that should humble and teach me to raise no objections to call it something else.

2. The Bible also shows that what Abraham did in that very act (tithing from his ‘spoils of war’) did not break God’s law at any point; for it was also the very thing that is recognized and affirmed in the Law. An example is found in Numbers 31:28-29, where the “tribute” offered as a “heave offering” was NOT the personal goods of any of ‘the men of war which went out to battle’. As a matter of fact, whatever they offered as ‘heave offering’ to the Lord came from their conquest over the Medianites, OUTSIDE the land of Israel (see vs. 9 & 11). The ‘heave offering’ in that instance was not from the personal incomes of enterprise of those men. You will remember that Num. 18:24 refers to the ‘heave offering’ as a type of tithes (“the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD”). So, in just the same way, Abraham’s tithing to Melchizedek from the spoils of war tessellates with what we find in Num. 31:28-29 & 41; therefore we can trust he did not break any law, even though he was not even under any Law to begin with.

3. Earlier, I’d explained that the spoils of war belong to the victor – in this case, Abraham. Citing Deut. 20:12-14, for example, we note that God gives the spoils to His own people in any conquest: “ALL the spoil THEREOF, shalt thou take unto THYSELF; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.” Again, I butressed that very point with attested sources as Hugo Grotius’ “De Jure Belli ac Pacis” which affirmed the very same thing. Abraham’s spoils of war belonged to him; and if they did not, it would have been wrong for him to take stuff belonging to other people and given them to others, such as his confederates (Aner, Eschol and Mamre) as well to Melchizedek. In plain English, to do so would be stealing – but since the spoils belonged to Abraham as Deut. 20:12-14 demonstrates, we can safely infer that he was not stealing from anyone.

Perhaps you’d find those three points helpful as to why Abraham’s tithing is no problem to me. Even so, I enjoyed yours, and it’s refreshing to perceive the freedom which you enjoy in your persuasions in financial giving.

May the Lord Jesus Christ who we serve ever bless you.

When I stated ” avid legalistic tither ” I was referring to what contemporary Christianity taught me. All the churches I attended coming up, taught legalistic tithing. As a result, I fell into that same category. I did not understand the Spirit of giving. It wasn’t until I started reading the Word for myself and praying and listening to the Spirit, thats when I started to undertsand things clearer.

Also, let me clear something up. I’m not against giving 10% of one’s income for the service of the Lord. I pray that all God’s children can give 90% of their income to the kingdom of the Lord and live off the rest. What I’m against is Scripture been used to put believers in Christ under compulsion and renders them deaf to what the Spirit of the living God is really saying. You opened my eyes to the reason behind Abraham’s giving. You were correct. The is NO specific BIBLICAL reason to why he gave 10% of the spoils to Melchizedek. My guess is he was recognized Melchizedek’s kingship as one representing the TRue and Only God. I seen previous posts that refers to Melchizedek as a pagan god worshipper. I STRONGLY disagree. Hebrews 7 compares the priesthood of aaron to the priesthood of melchizedek ( a type for Jesus’ priesthood/kingship ) The author of Hebrews was a master of the Law. I refuse to believe he would include a pagan king / priesthood symbolizing Christ’s kingship & priesthood.

Also, when I spoke of Abraham breaking God’s Law this was under the assumption of tithing as an eternal Law. Once again you are correct. Abraham did not break God’s Law. BUT, IF tithing is AN ETERNAL LAW, than he did indeed break it. This is because he did NOT give from what he accumulated in the previuos two chapters. Abraham was VERY rich but the Scripture undeniably confirms that his giving was from the spoils of war. ( Read Heb 7 all, i believe the 4th verse clarifies to us what “all” really is ) I used the first part of Gen 14 as narrative to explain how ludicrous of would of been if he did pay 10% of what he had. Plus, the Scriptures stated the only thing he took to war was 318 men from his household. How could he give 10% of what he had before the war, if he never took his posessions with him to this war and/or he never traveled back to his hometown to get his posessions and then give a tithe of it to Mel. ? I wanted to take this common sense approach because God works in the natural as weel as the supernatural.

Bottomline is :

My standpoint of financial giving is one commanded by the Spirit. The are some individuals who can give far more than 10% but think their 10% gift is all what is required by God. Then there are some individuals who can not give 10% because of their poverished lifestyle. They need help from their well off brothers and sisters in Christ. However, they never receive financial help because the some of the well of brothers and sisters in Christ gave their 10% and firmly believed that is all what God’s requires. They negate the Spirit of the Law which is Love. It is hard to truly love your neighbor and not help him financially if your are capable of doing so. I’m eager to see your comments because you have opened my eyes to some things as well. I hope I can do the same.

Lastly, I say this is in humility, If im wrong about my standpoint in financial giving, I pray the Lord will show me through the Spirit, his beleivers & in His Word where I went astray. If your wrong about this subject, then I hope you will humble yourself and do the same. If we are both wrong, Then I pray God open both of our eyes to see HIS truth.

I love all of you in Jesus’ name….

Your observations are interesting. However, there’s a basic problem in your summations, which was well expressed in the second post:

I was once an avid legalistic tither but the Lord has open my eyes and now my giving is MUCH higher from God’s standpoint and my understanding is better on stewardship with finances

The thing is that God didn’t expect legalism of anyone; and to suppose that being “legalistic” was what tithes were about, only shows how many people miss the point. God never called His people to be legalists at anytime; and if people turned out that way, the problem emerged from them, not from God’s calling.

However, it’s great to know you’re seeing things in a different light now.

Now lets get to Abraham. I find it amazing that whenever tithing is discussed, abraham’s name always come up.

I wonder why you would be amazed about that. Does Scripture not mention Abraham at all in discussing tithes? Indeed it does; but your persuasions on his tithes are deeply flawed, and that’s why you had problems with it. Let’s cut to the chase and skip the ’800 miles’ idea, as it’s not pertinent to the discourse at hand. Here’s the basic point in yours:

Historical studies outside the word informs and confirms us that giving 10% to the local king was common practice and WAS MANDATED. It was NOT optional ! Now , since we Can not assume that Abraham was acting on this eternal principle, only two probables come to mind:

He was giving in accordance to local customs or he was giving acknowledging the Kingship of Melchizedk as respecting his authority by God, or a combo of both.

First, there’s nothing to suggest any “mandates” in his giving tithes to Melchizedek – at best, that is deliberately read into the text, not from the text. Once you take that approach, it won’t be long before you begin to see Melchizedek as a ‘pagan priest’ and then infer ‘pagan tithes’ for Abraham, as many people have done. To solve this problem for yourself, you’d have to either “prove” the Bible did not mean what it said in declaring that Melchizedek was the priest of the Most High God (Gen. 14:18 and Heb. 7:1), or otherwise find another way of discrediting what Scripture declares. If this won’t help you, then no need to resort to extraneous ideas and force them into the texts.

Second, Abraham was not acting on any compulsion in giving tithes to Melchizedek. The latter was a king (of Salem) as were other kings (of Sodom, of Gomorrah, of Admah, of Zeboiim, etc). If Abraham was following mere customs that compelled (ie. ‘mandated‘) him to tithe, then he could have done so to some other king and not to Melchizedek. Why? Simply because Abraham was dwelling in the plains of Mamre (Gen. 14:13), and not in Salem where Melchizedek was the king. Mamre was in Hebron (see Gen. 13:18 and 35:27), not in Salem. Thus, the ‘local custom’ that you had inferred as a “mandate” upon Abraham immediately poses a huge problem for you, because such a “mandate” would rather have compelled Abraham to tithe to some other king rather than to Melchizedek. Further, notice that in just the same way that the king of Sodom “went out to meet” Abraham (Gen. 14:17), so it was the king-priest Melchizedek “who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings” (Heb. 7:1), not the other way round, that Abraham went to meet Melchizedek.

Now, if he broke God’s eternal Law, then according to Malachi 3, He is under a curse for not giving the whole tithe.

Sorry, tavares, but another flawed assumption in yours. Abraham did not break God’s Law – and he gave tithes, nothing less. Your idea of the “whole tithe” is easily answered in Gen. 14:20 (“tithes of all”) and Heb. 7:2 (“a tenth part of all”). How then did he break the Law?

Besides, Abraham’s tithes were not based on ‘the Law’ – this is something that anti-tithers have to carefully bring themselves to consider. It is unhealthy to try and evaluate Abraham’s tithes on a “Law” that did not even exist until several centuries later.

However, if your problem is about whether Abraham tithed from his own wealth (or what belonged to him), I’ve discussed that in detail – he could not have given tithes to anyone, or given portions to his confederates, if those things did not first belong to him.

By the same anti-tithing logic, Numbers 31 would be “breaking” the Law! Why? Simple: the “tithes” in that chapter taken as heave offering for the priest (verses 28-29, 41) were not the personal property of the tithers. I wonder why most anti-tither argue tithes in that chapter, and have never seen this same point! If they could argue tithes from Numbers 31 and understanding that such “tithes” were not the personal property of the tithers, what then has been the big quarrel about Abraham’s “tithes” to Melchizedek? If the Bible refers to Abraham’s giving to Melchizedek as “tithes”, why are we belivers so busy looking for excuses to argue against the clear and simple declaration of Scripture?

Bottomline: good to know you are no longer living as an “avid legalistic tither” – for God never called anyone to legalism. Many blessings.

I had many spelling errors as well.

The beginning paragraph should read

I was once an avid legalistic tither but the Lord has open my eyes and now my giving is MUCH higher from God’s standpoint and my understanding is better on stewardship with finances…

I said that because I viewed some rhetoric that was borderline Un Christ like. We can PEACEFULLY speak about the WOrd and our observable differences and opinions , BUT it must never become a shouting match or a tool to divisiveness. (Titus 3:9-10)

With that being said,

I was once an avid tither but the Lord has open my eyes and now my giving is my higher and my understanding is better on stewardship.

Before we go to tithing we must first agree that God eternal principle is Giving. Throughout the Scripture, HE mandates what, how much when and where to give. I found thru time, that people add things and take away from the things He stated as eternal law or temporal law.

With that being said. One can not Biblically support tithing as an eternal command based on the grounds it occurred before the Law. If that was the case, then we are still bound by cicumsion, and animal sacifices. ( many other things I will not mention) Noah gave an burnt offering waaayyyy before the tithe was mentioned in the Bible but I seriously doubt ANYONE in the modern world would follow his example. Gen 8:20 Afterall, God stated Noah was the only righteous man on Earth in his time. (GEN 6;6-12) What was the difference between Noah’s character and Abramham’s character ? Nothing. They both were men of God. Notice that God never commanded Noah to tithe or give an offering as well. Drwa your concuclsuions from that

Now lets get to Abraham. I find it amazing that whenever tithing is discussed, abraham’s name always come up. Lets REALLY look at the Scripture. Lets look at Abram’s meager beginnings: Gen 12: 5-7 state he had posessions. But, what happened after he went to Egypt? ( verse 15-16 ) Pharaoh gave Abram sheep, cattle, male and female donkeys, camels, etc. So we see he was a little bit richer than he started off with.

Chapter 13 begins stating, Abram had BECOME VERY WEALTHY in livestock silve and gold. Notice how the author puts emphasis on VERY and HAd BECOME. These are factors telling us that Abram wealth drastically increased from what is was.

Why?

The Comtemporary teaching of Malachi 3 Tithing is an ETERNAL command by God and if you pay your tithe, God will open the doors of heaven and give you a blessing you can not physically store.

Hmmmmm…. Well we know Abram did not give anything to anyone at this time so If the tithing Law is Eternal , why is Abram receiving these material blessings and he did not give nothing to anyone at this time ? In fact, The Scripture tells us he was so rich , that he and his nephew had to part ways. Gen 13; 5-12

Now we go to Chapter 14, simple put, there was a war, 4 kings against 5. The 4 kings won, and they pillaged Sodom and the 5 other kings. Now Sodom is were Abram nephew lived. The Scripture states that it was the info that his nephew was captured that prompt him to fight these 4 kings. Notice, he DID NOT go to war to bring back a tithe to Melchizedek. ( verse 14 ) The Word Says , when he heard his nephew was captured, he called out 318 men from his household. ( another indication of how rich he was )The Scripture DIRECTLY tells us what was the prompt for this excursion. It was not paying annual tithing tributes to Melchizedek.

Notice what he took on his journey. Warriors !! 318 of them. He DID NOT TAKE ANY OF HIS OWN POSSESIONS ! In fact, it is luducrous to assume or believe a warrior would take 10% of his INCREASE ( go back to chapter 13 and see how rich he was ) to fight a war. The Word says he started from Mamre, (Gen 13; 18 ) and went as far as Dan than pursued the 4 kings to Hobah. ( Gen 14:14-16 ) Now how far is this distance that Abraham presumably traveled to fight a war and carry his tithe ? Well from Mamre to Dan is 130-140 LINEAR miles. From DAn to Hobah was 40-60 LINEAR miles. Then the Scripture says they went all the way back to Jerusalem. ( verse 17, Valley of Shaveh was near Jerusalem, about ten miles away from it. ) Thats about another 130-140 LINEAR miles. I put linear to indicate how far Abram traveled, ON FOOT if he was in a modern day jet! Thats roughly over 350 LINEAR miles. Now, i forgot to mentioned that there were two mountain ranges on this linear path. The actual path of travel is estimated to be over 800 miles ON FOOT ! (This has been verified in my ESV study bible) So, now Abram returns with all the spoils, peoples and his nephew , Lot. He meets up with this King, receives a blessing and the WOrd says Abraham gave him tithes of all. Some Christians today do not read any other passages inn the WOrd to clarify what was ” tithes of all”. Many equate this to all Abram accumalated at that time. Heb 7: 4 confirms that ” tithe of all ” was NOT ” tithes of all Abram’s wealth or increase. NO ! The Word tells us that this was ONLY from the spoils of war. The Word tells us that Abram did NOT give from his wealth or increase but it was from the spoils of war. Many tithing advocates use this verse as a premise and model for all Christians to follow. This is dangerous because it does not follow the model of giving from one’s salary, wealth or increase or the Spirit. Its a model followed only when accumulating goods from going to war. I do not understand why would a follower of Christ would desire or phathom to follow a stewardship system that mandates him/her to give from goods from accumulating from war. Notice, I did not Assume NOWHERE in this passages. I just let the Lord reveal HIS Word in its ENTIRETY. I want us to track and review this incident of stewardship then we can go to the next place where tithing is mentioned. Now let’s ask some questions and ASSUME that Abram tithed in accoradnce to God’s unspoken Eternal Law of giving 10% off one’s increase.

If Abram was acting on this unspoken principle, then he himself violated because he did NOT give from what he had accumulated in Gen 12 and 13. The Scripture states he gave from the spoils of war, not from his personal wealth.

Now, if he broke God’s eternal Law, then according to Malachi 3, He is under a curse for not giving the whole tithe.

????

Wait a minute, I thought Abram was declared by God Himself as being credited Righteous and ALL nations will be BLESSED thru him. (GEN 15; 6) Gal 4;7-9) Why Is God heaving these blessings on Abram when He broke God’s eternal command of tithing ? Why did God not speak of this tithing violation like he did in Malachi 3? Lastly, why is the whole world considered bless thru him by GOD ? God , himself stated that ALL NATIONS WILL BE BLESS THRU YOU.

Historical studies outside the word informs and confirms us that giving 10% to the local king was common practice and WAS MANDATED. It was NOT optional ! Now , since we Can not assume that Abraham was acting on this eternal principle, only two probables come to mind:

He was giving in accordance to local customs or he was giving acknowledging the Kingship of Melchizedk as respecting his authority by God, or a combo of both.( Also, Abram character was displayed when he gave everything thing to Sodom. He did not keep nothing for himself.)

Either one of these can possibly fly, BUT, BIBLICALLY, we can not assume that this was an unspoken principle of God. If we open this door, we open a plethora of pandora box’s following this premise.

There are other passages I desire to touch on but I implore all my brothers and sisters in Christ to review these passages mentioned, pray on them and let the Spirit reveal in accordance with Scripture what really happened.

Deut 12;32 must be taking in consideration as well when dealing with the tithe, afterall, this was ALSO apart of the tithing LAW as well.

please comment, no nastiness… please

tavares.lowery@yahoo.com

or tavares.lowery@tyndall.af.mil